Conversation

Something happens to the mind in conversation. It’s something that can’t be explained, as far as I know. Something happens. In response to ideas, the mind is put in motion. Ideas are formed and arranged, and then clarified, through speech or writing. And this spurs the next person, and returns to the first, and so on.

This is why dialog is where everything interesting that happens, happens, in novels, plays, in movies — in the dialog.

Facebook stimulates dialog. In this dialog you can find the best of the mind in motion, the best of human thinking in action. So it occurred to me the other day to start capturing some of this. Maybe this is kind of like thought photography; I push a button, and I capture what’s there, a snapshot of human thought:

Guy Chocensky Ukraine’s so called civil war was still another fake civil war conducted by the CIA and former russian oligarches that Putin threw out of Russia. As to Crimea? Russia has controlled that land since they wrest control of it from the Ottomans.

Lori Stuart No, it’s a real civil war caused by US interference in a country they had no business meddling with in the first place. US honestly thought it could sneak Ukraine onto its orbit and take Sevastopol for NATO using a CIA coup as a perceived “people’s revolution”, but it didn’t go as smoothly when the people of Crimea and Donbass refused to accept it.

Guy Chocensky Yeah..we are on the same page and paragraph on those issues, Lori. However …What defines a real v fake civil war? I believe a real civil war is entirely based on homegrown dissent. If it began because of “US interference” then it is an astroturf civil war

Lori Stuart Of course it began when the pro Russian residents seceded from Ukraine after they refused to accept the results of the US coup. The Ukrainian army set the army on the people in rebellion to try to force them back into the country, a rebel army formed and they fought back. There you go, civil war, just like how the US one broke out. I am convinced the US regime change machine did not expect that to happen. They believed all of Ukraine would welcome US and EU rule. This is why the US blamed Russia for supporting pro Russians when they rejected maidan. So it was caused by US interference but was not started intentionally by the CIA. (Though the coup was)

Guy Chocensky Lori Stuart Thanks for your insight. I think your understanding of the internal forces in Ukraine are vastly superior to my own.

Rob Snyder Lori Stuart so few Americans, as far as I can tell, can see this. They can’t formulate any kind of sensible accurate description of reality, about Russia, Ukraine, Crimea. Is there a particular reason that you do? It helps me feel the world is still sane when I find people like you. This is the reason I friend requested so many. Anyone who has a sensible view of Russia I need as a friend

Lori Stuart I’ve always been interested in Russia and their history and I know and understand a lot about it and the people. It upsets me that the hate of Russia is truly based on ignorance and outdated ideas, and the media and govt use that propaganda to get support for a very bad and dangerous agenda.

Stan Jacox One core element of the western claims against Russia has a major hole in it(all the claims do but this one is not being talked about at all), is the “fact” that Russia annexed Ukraine territory and is the basis for the sanctions against Russia and moves of US controlled NATO up against Russia’s borders over a 5,000 mile line. Crimea was not Ukraine territory at the time of Russian absorbtion of Crimea, Before the referendum by the people, the legal legislature of Crimea, the Parliament in Sevastopol had already declared independence. Actually, not independence, but cancelling association since they were an autonomous state and not an Oblast. The reason that is not being discussed is simple the US and Ukraine know they will lose in international court. Just last week Ukraine lost a case it brought against Russia for “discrimination” that should absolve Ukraine from having to pay back a $3billion debt. The discrimination was the claim that Ukraine speakers were not guaranteed instruction in Ukrainian in public schools. The case was decided in Russia’s favor. Why a case of discrimination and not “theft of Crimea”? Simple, Ukraine and its US backer knows two facts, Russia did annexed an independent country by popular referendum and that the right of the people to decide their fate was enshrined into international precedence by the “Kosovo Exception”, the principle invented by the US to justify carving out land from a legal country, a UN member, to create a new state called Kosovo. The US and EU have no leg to stand on in making the claims against Russia or the people of Crimea who voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, which they have every right to do.

Why is the core of the hostility against Russia and the justification of illegal economic war on another state not discussed by any politician?

Christopher Coman US and EU involvement in the coup d’état of the democratically elected Government of the Ukraine, 2014:

“This crisis was triggered by the west’s attempt to pull the Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure”(1) “including a concerted attempt to draw the Ukraine into Nato.”(2)

“The EU [had] been pushing Ukraine to sign an association agreement, offering loans for austerity, as part of a German-led drive to open up Ukraine for western companies.”(2) “President Yanukovych rejected [the] European Union plan that would have imposed harsh austerity on the already impoverished Ukraine. He accepted a more generous $15 billion loan from Russia, which [had] also propped up Ukraine’s economy with discounted natural gas.”(3)

“Ukrainians are deeply divided about both European integration and the protests – largely along an axis between the largely Russian-speaking east and south, and traditionally nationalist western Ukraine… It’s that historic fault line at the heart of the Ukraine that the west [had] been trying to exploit.”(2)

“Financing from the U.S.-funded National Endowment for Democracy and other US sources, played key roles in destabilizing and overthrowing the democratically elected president”(3) including “fund[ing] scores of bogus ‘pro-European’ groups.”(4)

“In December, 2013, US senator John McCain travelled to the Ukraine…appearing on stage with leaders of the three opposition parties leading the protests, including the far-right Svoboda party.”(5)

US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Victoria Nuland “ was at work planning for ‘regime change’, encouraging disruptive street protests by personally passing out cookies to the anti-government demonstrators. “(3)

Also in December, at a US-Ukraine Foundation Conference, Nuland commented that “the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals.”(6)

In late January, 2014, a recorded conversation between Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, unveiled the following insight into the US’s plans for the Ukraine.

Nuland: I don’t think Klitsch [Vitaly Klitschko, one of three main opposition leaders] should go into the government. I don’t think it’s necessary, I don’t think it’s a good idea…I think Yats [Arseniy Yatsenyuk, another opposition leader] is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience…

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that’s right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?”(7)

The coup d’état was complete in late February, 2014, when a new government was formed and “Nuland’s choice, Yatsenyuk, emerged as prime minister.”(3)

In May, during a House of Foreign Affairs hearing, Congressman Dana Rohrebacher confronted Victoria Nuland regarding who the US was supporting in the Kyiv protests.

Rohrebacher: We did have a legitimate election before, and the legitimate president was removed after we had major street violence. There were pictures of people running around, that we were told were neo-Nazis”.

Nuland: “First of all, the vast majority of those who were participating on Maidan were peaceful protesters. There were mothers and grandmothers and veterans…

Rohrebacher: “I saw those pictures and I also saw a lot of people throwing fire bombs at groups of policemen. There were people shooting into the ranks of police. So, yes, there were mothers with flowers, but there were also very dangerous street fighters engaged in those demonstrations. …The question is: were there neo-Nazis involved?”

Nuland: “There were many colours of Ukraine involved, including very ugly colours.”(8)

In February, 2015, Obama commented “… after we had brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine.”(9)

Note: “In mid-April, 2014, CIA director John Brennan was confirmed to have travelled to Kiev.”(10)

“[In late April] US vice president Joe Biden [met] Ukraine’s acting prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk in Kiev”(11) and in May came “the appointment of Hunter Biden, son of…Joe Biden, as a member of Ukraine energy giant Burisma’s board of directors.”(12)

References

(1) Seumas Milne, It’s not Russia that’s pushed Ukraine to the brink of war, The Guardian, 30 April, 2014: http://www.theguardian.com/…/russia-ukraine-war-kiev…

(2) Seumas Milne, In Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis, The Guardian, 29 January, 2014: http://www.theguardian.com/…/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs…

(3) Robert Parry, What Neocons Want from Ukraine Crisis, Consortium News, 2 March, 2014: http://consortiumnews.com/…/what-neocons-want-from…/

(4) Christopher Booker, Fresh evidence of how the West lured Ukraine into its orbit, The Telegraph, 9 August, 2014: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Fresh-evidence-of-how-the…

(5) Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of ‘democracy’ protest, Channel 4, 24 January, 2014: http://www.channel4.com/…/kiev-svoboda-far-right…

(6) Remarks at the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation Conference, US Department of State, 13 December, 2013: http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2013/dec/218804.htm

(7) Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call, BBC News, 7 February, 2014: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

(8) House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, NSNBC International, 9 May, 2014: http://nsnbc.me/…/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation…/

(9) Ukraine Coup: Obama Admits to ‘Brokering Power Transition’ in Kiev, The Pontiac Tribune, 2 Feb, 2015: http://pontiactribune.com/ukraine-coup-obama-admits…/

(10) Tony Cartalucci, West visits newly installed regime in Kiev, New Eastern Outlook, 23 April, 2014: http://journal-neo.org/…/west-visits-newly-installed…/

(11) US vice president Joe Biden meets Ukraine’s acting prime minister Arseny Yatseniuk in Kiev, ABC News, 23 april, 2014: http://www.abc.net.au/…/joe-biden-meets-arseny…/5405220

(12) Tony Cartalucci, Ukraine and the Battle for South Stream, New Eastern Outlook, 27 June, 2014: http://journal-neo.org/…/ukraine-and-the-battle-for…/

It’s not Russia that’s pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

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This post is paired with another: Philadelphia

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